Jimmy Wales from Wikipedia he has been called the last decent technology baron. It sounds like a flattering label, although I usually associate it more with yacht-dwelling carnivores who feed their herds with home-grown macadamia nuts; the kind of person you’d recently find drinking and dining with the President of the United States and his coterie of MAGA sycophants.
Wales, on the other hand, keeps things relatively low key. Even though the Wikipedia site he founded turns 25 this month, he seems more interested in fixing home Wi-Fi than joining the performative games of the tech elite. He also spent the last few months promoting a up-to-date book titled Seven rules of trustwhich uses Wikipedia’s overarching strategy and unlikely beginning to formulate Wales’ handbook on how to right the many wrongs in today’s deeply polarized and antagonistic society.
On this week’s episode of The Substantial Interview, Wales and I discussed what it means to build something that is used by billions of people and that is not optimized for growth at all costs. During our discussion, he reflected on Wikipedia’s messy human origins, the ways in which it has been attacked by governments from Russia to Saudi Arabia, and the challenges of maintaining neutrality in an online ecosystem hostile to the notion that facts even exist. We also talked about what’s threatening Wikipedia today, from artificial intelligence to billionaires buried in conspiracies, and why it will never edit an entry about Donald Trump. Read our entire conversation below.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
KATIE DRUMMOND: Jimmy Wales, welcome to The Substantial Interview. Thank you very much for being here.
JIMMY WALES: Thank you for inviting me.
We always start these conversations with a few quick questions, like a little warm-up for your brain. Are you ready?
Yes.
What internet rabbit hole have you fallen down recently?
Home assistant. I just started using Home Assistant for my intelligent home devices and there’s a huge community there and thousands of things to read and so on and so forth. So that’s what I’m obsessed with.
What is this community doing?
Troubleshooting. People are working on extensions that can handle all the things in the world and that’s amazing.
What topic do you never argue about on the Internet anymore?
I would say I don’t argue with anyone on trans issues. This makes absolutely no sense. It’s too toxic. I’ve never argued with it, but I don’t even talk about it.
You’ll just stay away.
Yes, it’s too unpleasant.
What do you trust more: Wikipedia or ChatGPT?
Definitely Wikipedia.
I had to ask. What’s your favorite non-Wikipedia website or app?
I really like the Reddit bits. There are some really great communities and great people on Reddit. I lurk and read on the personal finance subreddit. There are just a lot of really nice people there. I’m always amazed by this.
Reddit is really having a moment. I’ve noticed that I spend a lot more time lurking in the Reddit app on my phone because I prefer reading thoughtful conversations rather than scrolling through X’s.
That’s it. It’s like a place with paragraphs.
And often really thinking people. What’s the best thing about living in the UK compared to the US?
Well, my family is here. I always say this about the United States: technology is in Silicon Valley, politics is in Washington, cinema and show business in Los Angeles, and finance in Up-to-date York. But it’s all in London.
So if I lived in Silicon Valley, I would only have friends in the tech industry because they live there. Whereas in London it is much more comprehensive. All kinds of people. So I like it.